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Looking to purchase a DSLR12151

homefinders3d private msg quote post Address this user
@8643d if you are considering buying used, look out for the price of used Canon R mirrorless cameras to drop as the R2 is released. Someone also mentioned that if you are going to shoot video with the DSLR that you might want to consider a stabilizer. That's a good idea and will start another debate on which is the best stabilizer lol. Once you solve your camera choice dilemma, then you can deal with the HDR, ambient, single flash, multi-flash and Flambient debate Then if you choose HDR: Photomatix, vs Aurora vs LR etc..
Post 26 IP   flag post
Photo
Sparc
Charleston, South Carolina
JonJ private msg quote post Address this user
@8643d,
Unfortunately, I do not have a good recommendation for a course for someone who is getting started. However, the suggestions that @homefinders3d has made are all good recommendations. The only warning that I will say is that you really need to understand what your business goals are as a real estate photographer. A lot of the content created by the photographers will certainly help you to create amazing images, but there is a cost. Usually the techniques that they teach are more time consuming and require additional equipment. This is not a problem if your business goals are to cater to high-end listing agents that can afford more expensive marketing. If your goal is to pursue clients in the "bread and butter" segment of the real estate market, then I would suggest learning a more "run and gun" approach.

For me, I watched a lot of YouTube videos from a lot of different photographers. I didn't know what I didn't know. I did not know who didn't know what they were talking about and who were experts. I had to piece everything together myself and figure out what would work for me. That being said, if I were to do it all over gain, I would find someone with a good portfolio and with a style that is in line with my business goals. From there, I would reach out to them and see if they would be willing to train and mentor me.

If you are unable to find a course that works for you or a mentor, I will eventually create my own course. However, I have been saying that for the last 3 years....If all else fails, you could always make a trip to Charleston.
Post 27 IP   flag post
homefinders3d private msg quote post Address this user
The beauty of digital is you can shoot 1000's of images and practice. You can also preview your initial results on site. It's a lot easier to learn by trial and error when you don't have to wait a week for the results and pay for the bad ones as well as the good ones lol.
Post 28 IP   flag post
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Member
Houston
briangreul private msg quote post Address this user
@homefinder3d - you can use a Kodak disposable camera if you want, or an iPhone. It's just going to look like that's what you used. If someone was investing in a camera, my advice is still to buy the best full frame sensor you can get. Even an older 5D Mk1 would be fine, I had one for a while and it was a nice camera. My 7D had video and the 6D has the ability to autofocus in video. A good used Canon or Nikon is going to stand the test of time, batteries are widely available OEM or Aftermarket. A quick check on eBay suggests you could get a 6D for $500 ish and a 5D for about the some money, Mk1 or Mk2.


You get what you pay for with lenses. The problem with a crop sensor or smaller sensor is that you need a wider lens to get the same scene. Very short lenses introduce aberrations, both distortion and color. The biggest issue here is that the focus on the center of the lens won't be the same as the edges. Some software can adjust for this with some lenses/camera.

While I agree we are not shooting for Architectural Digest or Nat Geo, most Agents want those images. Usually for the AirBnB price. Therefore, my advice still stands to someone looking to invest in a camera and lenses. Buy the best you can afford in a proven, stable brand. You can learn photography with good equipment. That's not to say you can't work magic with throw-away cameras. One of my better selling images was shot with a Nikon I bought at WalMart on a dive trip after my Canon SureShot100 flooded. It's just alot easier to do great work with a great camera.

As for photo classes, look for a photography school in your area that is a non-profit. In Houston I took classes from Houston Center for Photography. https://hcponline.org/ They are affordable and taught by local pros who want to help others become better photographers. Online is also good, but I recommend in person because there is more individual interaction and coaching.

Now, none of us seem to have touched on why Matterport images aren't ideal for listing photos. So let me share my view:
1- Small sensor. The sensor in the camera is small, which means there are fundmamental issues with the output.
2- Not raw. This means you are starting with a compressed, highly skewed image to begin with. Raw images are just sensor data that can be more easily manipulated. The advantage of doing this in a program like Lightroom is that the manipulation is stored separately from the image and can be changed or undone later.
3- Composition. You are at the mercy of the wonderful Matterport app to decide how your room should look. Feeling lucky?

I regularly modify my zoom to include or exclude elements. Cropping and composition literally make the photo. You don't want to see everything everytime. You want to show something to tell a story or vision. In REP the vision is that the prospective buyer sees themselves having a wonderful life in the home.

I'll leave you with another analogy. You could write a story with a crayon, a pencil, or a pen. One would be okay, one would be preferred, and one would be laughable. In the photography world the Matterport is a lumber crayon. It's very good at one specific task and laughable at the others. You wouldn't mark lumber with a pen, and you shouldn't write a story with a lumber crayon.
Post 29 IP   flag post
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Member
Houston
briangreul private msg quote post Address this user
Here is a good article on distortion. He's focused on 24mm and 55mm lenses. It's going to get alot worse down at 10mm where you need to be in a crop sensor to equal the 17mm on a full frame sensor. https://clickitupanotch.com/lens-distortion/

The advantage of using a great lens with a full frame sensor is that the distortion has been minimized. You are paying for that fancy glass.

Anyhow, I'd be remiss if I encouraged someone to do anything less than their best.

There is one other thought that comes to mind. If you show up with a $400 camera on a $50 tripod and use all automated settings, what makes you think the agent won't do the same thing? I think the reason they hire us is to achieve results that they don't have the equipment or expertise to achieve themselves.
Post 30 IP   flag post


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Orchard Park, New York
GETMYVR private msg quote post Address this user
@briangreul Well Golllly!
Post 31 IP   flag post
Expertise private msg quote post Address this user
ORIGINAL POSTER => Quote:
Originally Posted by 8643d
I’d like opinions on cameras and lenses for a beginner like me.





I'm going to repeat my advice for a beginner, which matches Jon's...

I know what I'm talking about and Jon's images prove he does as well.

Canon 80D. I would definitely go for the 10-22 over the 10-18 though. It's better built, has less distortion and is less prone to lens flare.
Post 32 IP   flag post
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Member
Greenville, South Carolina
8643d private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expertise

Pick up a 10-22 for $438 and you're good for years.


@Expertise Just to clarify, this lens will work on the 80D? The description says “This exciting zoom lens provides ultra wide-angle coverage to the EOS 20D, 30D, 40D, 50D and Digital Rebel SLRs.”
Post 33 IP   flag post
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Member
Greenville, South Carolina
8643d private msg quote post Address this user
What are your tripod, stabilizer, and any other accessories I might need recommendations?
Post 34 IP   flag post
Expertise private msg quote post Address this user
There is a lot of well intentioned, but nonetheless, bad advice here.

You absolutely do not need a full frame lens/sensor to create R/E photos. Particularly if you are a beginner.

I shoot a Sony A7Rii, a 42MP full frame camera.

I have it set to shoot as a crop frame, using an $800 Sony 10-18 crop frame lens. WHY would anyone do that!?!

Simple. Because 42 MP files are too big. They slow down everything (uploads, importing to LR, processing) drastically. The quality difference is impossible to detect.

I originally bought a much more expensive $1600 full frame lens with this camera. A month later I realized I could use the crop frame Sony 10-18 and work faster. I sold the full frame lens.

It's not the size of the sensor (or the MP count) that matters most, it is the quality.

The best R/E camera/lens combo for a beginner is one that does everything a beginner needs while being easy to use and understand. What do you need? Well, I'd say you need something that has a timer that will work with adjustable bracketing settings where you can shoot 3/5/7 files at various exposure spreads. The 80D Canons will do that, and the Canon 10-22 lens is cheap and excellent.
Post 35 IP   flag post
Expertise private msg quote post Address this user
I'd hold off on trying to do video for a bit. It's like playing chess compared to checkers. Maybe just use your DJI for now.

If you are in love with the idea of doing video, you probably should go Panasonic mirrorless, the GH4 is now $999 from Panasonic. Get the 7-14 lens. Then you can use the DJI Ronin SC which is quite good.

Cheap Tripod- Slik is good value and sturdy. I prefer Manfrotto 190 or 290.
Post 36 IP   flag post
Expertise private msg quote post Address this user
Yes, absolutely. That is some really old description! The 20D to 50D came out 10-15 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8643d
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expertise

Pick up a 10-22 for $438 and you're good for years.


@Expertise Just to clarify, this lens will work on the 80D? The description says “This exciting zoom lens provides ultra wide-angle coverage to the EOS 20D, 30D, 40D, 50D and Digital Rebel SLRs.”
Post 37 IP   flag post
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Member
Greenville, South Carolina
8643d private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expertise
I'd hold off on trying to do video for a bit. It's like playing chess compared to checkers. Maybe just use your DJI for now.

If you are in love with the idea of doing video, you probably should go Panasonic mirrorless, the GH4 is now $999 from Panasonic. Get the 7-14 lens. Then you can use the DJI Ronin SC which is quite good.

Cheap Tripod- Slik is good value and sturdy. I prefer Manfrotto 190 or 290.


@Expertise Yeah, the video isn’t as urgent and I know it’s a different ball game to learn. But I’d like the camera that I invest in to eventually be able to produce a decent video. I always have Realtors asking if I create video tours, but all I can offer is a slideshow video.

Is the GH4 going to produce decent photos? I like the idea that’s it’s mirrorless. Is Panasonic a solid brand like Canon?

Will the 80D not produce a satisfactory video, I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t necessarily need 4K.

I do have a DJI Osmo (not the pocket) and the Mavic Pro which would probably get me by.

Thank you so much for the helpful information.
Post 38 IP   flag post
Expertise private msg quote post Address this user
We have a GH4 we bought used, just for video. The still images are more than acceptable.

The GH4 (and now the GH5) are tops for video. They are kind of designed 70/30 to excel at video. The 80D is probably 80/20 towards stills. But the Canons will do a decent video tho. It's just easier on a Panasonic.

The DJI Ronin SC is designed for smaller/mirrorless cameras and the Panasonic is great for that. It won't work properly with a larger/heavier camera.

I'm very impressed with the Panasonic.

If you really like the idea of mirrorless and want to do video...

The Sony A7ii would be worth a look. About $900 these days. I'm not 100% sure it allows you to shoot continuous brackets shots WITH the timer delay tho. You can work around it using a $20 remote. My A7rii does, my A7 does not. You want that to eliminate shake between shots.
Post 39 IP   flag post
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Greenville, South Carolina
8643d private msg quote post Address this user
@Expertise I have been leaning toward either a Sony Mirrorless or the D70. From what you’ve explained, I think the Sony would be my best option if I intend to eventually use it for video as well.
Would the A7rii be worth the extra $500 over the A7ii?

What the lens recommendation for the A7ii’s? Would I need a different lens down the line for video?

There is a used a7rii local in my area, asking $950 for it.
Post 40 IP   flag post
Expertise private msg quote post Address this user
Sony 10-18 lens is great, video or stills. $950 sounds awesome.
Ask the A7rii owner for the shutter count. This will tell you if they are a pro or a hobbyist. Hobbyist cameras are usually barely used. My A7rii has 58k shutter actuations. We've had Canons go 250kish before they break.

Shutter count tool


Review some photos OF the camera. They should definitely be the first owner and have all the books, box etc. You can tell when someone is the type who takes of their stuff.
Post 41 IP   flag post
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Member
Houston
briangreul private msg quote post Address this user
Sorry for not responding sooner. I was out working all day. I can't stress enough that a crop frame sensor is going to fundamentally limit your photos. It's not just my opinion, it's the physics. Look at the image I posted with the squares. The various crop frames shoot those red lines compared to the full picture for any given lens. You really don't want a DSLR for shooting RE video. I'll cover that in a separate post.

Remember, you can always throw data away by cropping. You can't create data that isn't there. Regardless of what you are shooting it's going to need processing for MLS. None of the MLS systems here take a 20MP file. They require a much smaller file. No big deal, it's a setting in Lightroom.

You can pick up a nice used Canon EF 17-40mm f/4 redline lens for $300-400 on eBay. That's looking at Sold listings in the last 30 days. That's a great, professional lens.

Rather than settle for a consumer camera, buy a used pro camera. Canon's number scheme is xxD for consumer, and xD for prosumer/pro cameras. The other advantage to a professional camera is that they have a metal frame as opposed to a plastic one. In the event that you drop or knock over your camera it is an important detail. You could pick up a 6D for around $500 on ebay, again judging from sold listings. It's the camera body I'd recommend. If you are lucky you can get it with the above mentioned lens.

So going with a Canon 6D and 17-40 Prime Lens would be $900-950.

You want a camera you can grow into without replacing it.

An 80D isn't any cheaper used either.

The 7D Mk II, 6D, 6D Mk II, and 5D MkII/IV can do 7 AEB stops.

I recommend a Manfrotto tripod (055x or 290 series) and their quick release system. It's solid and stable. You want a tripod rated for more than your typical rig. What I mean by this is that if your camera and heaviest lens is say 4.5 pounds, but you usually shoot with a lens and body that weigh 3 pounds, then you want to make sure the tripod can handle at least 9 to 12 pounds. The closer you get to the tripod rating the more likely vibration is to become a problem.

You should be able to pick up a Manfrotto tripod and quick release for around $300. That will work no matter which way you go camera wise. You can save some money if you find an open box on Amazon. The quick release you could pick up used on eBay. I've not seen the tripods any cheaper. I recommend a dedicated tripod if you can swing it. It gets you out of messing with your MP tripod and reduces the opportunity for something unpleasant to happen.
Post 42 IP   flag post
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Member
Houston
briangreul private msg quote post Address this user
As for video, I agree with you and @Expertise - it's a different animal.


For RE Video you definitely will want a gimble to smooth out the video. Beyond that it just depends on where you are starting from and the DJI Osmos are basically a drone camera / gimble on a stick. Way cheaper and easier to manage than a ronin and DSLR.

The GoPro Karma grip would also be worth a look. GoPro's are great for video with minimal hassle. You just want to pay attention to which framing you have selected and think about your audio. GoPro audio is a sore spot IMHO. If you are doing voiceover/narration/scoring(music) then the audio is irrelevant. If the agent is going to give a "tour" then things are going to get more complicated and you'll really want a wireless Lavalier Mic like the Audio Technica System10.
Post 43 IP   flag post
Photo
Sparc
Charleston, South Carolina
JonJ private msg quote post Address this user
@8643d,

This discussion got me thinking this weekend while I was out photographing properties. Are my clients hiring me because of the equipment I have or because of the results I deliver? So, to test this question, I snapped some photos with my "backup camera". Here are the results.

photos from backup camera

Let me know if you think these are good enough to deliver to a client and if so, I'll let you know what equipment I used.

Thanks!
JonJ
Post 44 IP   flag post
Expertise private msg quote post Address this user
Not wanting to bicker here, but...

I shot with a 6D for 4 years. It was not a particularly great camera in hindsight. Bought it because I thought I needed a full frame camera. You don't.

All these were shot with my Sony in crop frame mode, with a crop frame lens =>
Example photos

The idea that a larger sensor provides more information is misleading. A full frame Canon with a 17-35 lens will shoot less field of view then a crop frame with a 10-22. For what that's worth?

Also- not to be nit-picky, but the 7D and 7D Mkii are crop frames.
Post 45 IP   flag post
Expertise private msg quote post Address this user
Yeah, those pics are very acceptable. I'm guessing you used a Rebel, since you shoot Canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJ
Let me know if you think these are good enough to deliver to a client and if so, I'll let you know what equipment I used.
Post 46 IP   flag post
Photo
Sparc
Charleston, South Carolina
JonJ private msg quote post Address this user
No, these weren't taken with a Rebel. Any other guesses?
Post 47 IP   flag post
Expertise private msg quote post Address this user
60D
Post 48 IP   flag post
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Member
Greenville, South Carolina
8643d private msg quote post Address this user
@JonJ Yes, those look acceptable to me.

To say the least, it has been overwhelming trying to decide the best equipment to get started. As of now, I’m leaning towards the 80D with the 10-22 lens. If I go the refurbished route, it won’t be breaking the bank for me.
Post 49 IP   flag post
Photo
Sparc
Charleston, South Carolina
JonJ private msg quote post Address this user
@8643d,

I think you will be happy with that camera/lens combination. Despite what others may say, you are being hired to solve a problem. It doesn't matter what you use, just as long as you can deliver the solution your client is looking for. That being said, the photos I just posted were taken with a Galaxy S7 smartphone with a $25 universal clip on lens attached.

Invest in you skills and knowledge and you will be able to take good photos with even the most modest of cameras.

Just my 2 cents!
JonJ
Post 50 IP   flag post
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Member
Houston
briangreul private msg quote post Address this user
@Expertise - an APS-C/10-22EFS and a FF/17-40 are very similar FOV. The conversion is 1.6x and very few people would notice 1mm of zoom difference. So let's agree to call that a wash.

EF-S are consumer grade lenses and only work on crop sensor cameras. Source:https://community.usa.canon.com/t5/Lenses/What-is-the-difference-between-EF-and-EF-S-lenses-and-what-is/td-p/139263

Basic physics and electronics are at play. It's really not about my opinion on the subject. A shorter lens = more distortion or fisheye effect. That can be dealt with in software.

Each pixel element is a discrete electronic sensor. The smaller it is, the more of a challenge light sensitivity becomes. Electronics designers overcome this with amplification, but amplification introduces noise, even in the best of cameras.

This why a smaller sensor takes inferior photos. This is why we (and every agent out there) are not doing all photos with an iPhone. It has a tiny sensor and a very small lens. That fundamentally means less light being amplified more.

The difference between APS-C and full frame is 1.5 to 1.6 depending on the camera. For Canon it's 1.6 or 160%. That's before we get to packing twice as many sensors into that smaller space.

So far @Expertise you have failed to actually back up your advice beyond a little Canon bashing. You haven't explained why a crop sensor and short lens will produce a superior photo. My guess is that is because you know it won't and can't justify it.

You are correct, the 7D is a crop frame sensor. When I had mine I bought it for video work. When the 6D came out it was a better camera for video work and it has better low light sensitivty than the 5D MkII which I had prior to the 7D.

@8643d The 80d is a consumer camera. A used 6D will cost you about the same and give you better performance. Here is a good comparison https://cameradecision.com/compare/Canon-EOS-80D-vs-Canon-EOS-6D

The highlights of which are 60% better ISO performance, better battery life, 207% larger pixel area, and slightly better color depth.

As for the lenses, EFS (the 10-22) is a value focused lens. The EF 17-40 f/4L is not. Here is an excerpt from Canon's discussion board: (see link above)
Also... since a primary motivation of producin these lenses is cost reduction (so they can be sold at prices that more consumers can afford) there are some other areas where they reduce costs as well. For example... high end lenses may have more aperture blades for a more rounded aperture opening. They may have a better "build" quality. They may be "weather sealed". There's a market where this is exactly what the consumer wants (and it's a big market.) Pros and advanced amateurs may be more demanding in these areas and refuse to sacrifice to save money. You can still mount an EF lens on an APS-C camera. Canon's very best quality lenses get the "L" designation. The "L" is always appended to the foacl ratio value. (e.g. EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II". Canon colors the "L" red and they paint a red stripe around the end of the lens. But in order for a lens to qualify as an "L" grade lens it has to be usable on any EOS camera... not just the APS-C cameras. For this reason you can't find an EF-S "L" lens.

Now at the end of the day if you want to buy an 80D and a 10-22EFS combo you'll still produce good photos. Heck, you could probably take good photos with a Canon, Nikon, Pentax, or Panasonic Lumix. A good friend of mine does amazing dive photography with his Lumix. I keep telling him to publish a book.

The difference is that with a 6D and an EF-L lens you will only buy that lens once. The 6D can be upgraded as your budget and needs change. You can invest in lenses that make sense for your needs and interests, such as zoom or fisheye (10-22) knowing that they will work with whatever body you own at whatever point in time.

The bodies have a lifespan, both in terms of shutter actuations and in terms of features. The shutter actuation life is about 150K for a 6D, 7D or 5D. The 80D is 100K.

As you are just getting into this I would encourage you to think long term. Buy a good tripod, a manual release, and the best lens you can afford paired with a body that does what you need and you can live with for now.

While it's possible to do it elsewhere, Adobe CC is a damn good deal at $32.99/mo. Just be prepared to haggle every year to keep it there, or switch email addresses. Now, I have the full package as I do a decent amount of video work for my 8000+ subscriber YouTube channel. I also dabble in InDesign and Photoshop as I used to own a printing company and know more about pre-press and on-press than I want to go into. Use Lynda.com or YouTube to learn what you need if you don't want to take classes. And I highly recommend taking classes to increase your skillset as a photographer. Real time coaching and feedback is priceless.

Lastly, you asked in an earlier post if Agents hire you for what you do, or your equipment. The answer is YES. They hire you for both.
Post 51 IP   flag post
homefinders3d private msg quote post Address this user
I have both the the 17-40L and the 10-22 e-fs. I purchased the 17-40L in 2003 along with a 10D when I switched from Nikon 35mm. I also purchased a Canon 100-400 L IS at the same time. I found the 17-40 limiting for Beach shots or so I told my wife. The 10-22 E-FS came out in 2004 and I snapped it up. My retail store was wiped out by Hurricane Ivan and didn't re-open until Black Friday. I wanted to do some event photography and drove over to Denny MFG (backdrops) to pick up a Mitsubishi event printer. While I was there the sales guy asked me if I had seen the new 20D and pulled one out of a locked cabinet. I went home with a printer and a new body. The following year I was walking through the local Navy Exchange and to my surprise they had a brand new 5D. Even bigger surprise, my wife said: you deserve that and you can use it for product photography. lol. I bought the 60D when it came out so I could use if for video. My point being that I have a lot of experience with both lenses. The 10-22 on a 80 or 90D has a wider FOV than the 17-40L on a 5D. Not by much, but it is wider. I bought a Blackmagic Design PC 4k along with a Zihyuan Crane 3 Lab - shoots fantastic raw video and it has a micro 4/3 sensor. I let the BMPCC go and picked up a Canon 90D. I bought the Canon 90D because imo you just can't beat the Canon color out of camera (video). The BMD BMPCC 4k requires color grading etc.. I'm not saying there aren't benefits to full frame. I'm really trying to find an excuse to purchase the Canon R2 when it is released LOL. I personally don't buy into the thought that an agent hires you for your equipment choice. The average agent can't tell the difference between a cropped sensor and a full frame, they just know you have a DSLR.
Post 52 IP   flag post
Expertise private msg quote post Address this user
80D, 10-22. You'll do great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8643d
I’d like opinions on cameras and lenses for a beginner like me.
Post 53 IP   flag post
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