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$0.05 a SQ FT: Matterport 3D/VR + MatterTags4920

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DanSmigrod private msg quote post Address this user



Hi All,

I spotted this advertisement.

I thought you might have something to say about it?

(I excluded the company name and contact info.)

Best,

Dan

P.S. Heading to the Atlanta Mixed Reality Meetup tonight (Thursday, 29 June 2017). I likely will be slow to reply ...
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Tosolini private msg quote post Address this user
If you do a reverse search in Google by image and you couple it with the word Matterport, you'll find a few more of these nice offers :-)
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DanSmigrod private msg quote post Address this user
@Tosolini

Thank you ... and let's not advertise the company or market here please 😎

Dan
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Chemistrydoc private msg quote post Address this user
We're sadly on a race to the bottom. I despise that business model and fight it at every turn.
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VTLV private msg quote post Address this user
Lynch em!

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Chadcloses private msg quote post Address this user
This is an inherent problem in any business, whos business plan relies strictly on pricing and has no regard for the value of the service they are offering. When you market your service as having no value how do you justify your existence?
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DanSmigrod private msg quote post Address this user
Hi All,

If you are facing a challenge like this in your market, make the competition irrelevant with a Blue Ocean marketing strategy.

Blue Ocean: Make the Competition Irrelevant

Dan
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Chemistrydoc private msg quote post Address this user
Exactly, Dan. Thanks for the reminder.
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jfantin private msg quote post Address this user
I hate when this happens, but then I realize that this is inevitable. I know that eventually my prices will have to go down if more players enter the market.

When you face a low cost competitor you have basically two choices:

a) You compete as a differentiator (easier to say than to implement)
b) you embrace the low cost strategy and compete against the new entrant.

As the captain says when the plane is about to go down: "brace for impact"
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GarySnyder private msg quote post Address this user
It's already happening in the UK with 50+ MSP's and a additional 18 cameras with a service company. In addition We have MP's UK sales office pushing cameras every months to make their sales quota as well as an additional MP reseller. The last job I was asked to quote on I was informed that I was competing against 5 other MSP's . Welcome to the UK
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Wonderdawg private msg quote post Address this user
Why bother? At those prices, it's difficult to scale and there's no room for profit. Let's not even discuss costs of doing business. Take off $19.00 for hosting and then one can quickly see the bottom of the quicksand. Some agent will come along and get a 10,000 sq foot house for $279.00 (minus $39.00 for hosting).
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DanSmigrod private msg quote post Address this user
@Wonderdawg

Maybe we should sub-tract the 10,000 SQ FT listings to the $0.05 Pro?

Hi All,

A Member let me know about this $0.04 SQ FT offer ...

Dan

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GarySnyder private msg quote post Address this user
I think what everyone forgets is that the MP camera in relative terms is a point and shoot camera and anyone can produce a stunning VT or VR model with relatively little experience. That's the beauty of the MP system and that's why they've been so successful. Even today nothing come close to what MP can offer.

Those of use how have been shooting for some time now know it's not that simple and there are lots of trick to accomplishing a difficult shoots but thanks to Dan's wonderful site anyone can find a answer to the most difficult situation they may encounter.

That leads me to my closing point. A good many of the people who have bought a camera have never even shot a photo with a DSLR, they are what I call the Instamatic crowd. "Sorry if a lot of you are too young to remember the Kodak's Instamatic camera". Neither are they professionals or business people in the true since of the word so they don't understand the true cost of doing business. They just want to pay off their investment in the technology and not consider other cost. When they see that opportunities are not knocking at their door they go into panic mode and will price their services at such a low price just to keep their cash coming in to at least pay off their equipment.

The end result is what were now seeing not just in the States and UK but with MSP's who I speak with around the world. That's why there has always been a constant volume of cameras coming up for sale on eBay. As I fist stated almost 3 years ago on this site "The Streets Aren't Paved With Gold" in many locations around the world. So potential buyers be fore warned it may not be as rosy and that MP sales person told you.
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3SixtyNow private msg quote post Address this user
The company that @DanSmigrod posted at $0.04 SQ FT is a company that is going national. They have raised a lot of money through angel investors and may be coming to a city near you!
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jfantin private msg quote post Address this user
Yesterday a did a few calculations, and the truth is that at $0.05 and a good volume (3 to 4 projects per day) you can get a 35/40% annual return on your investment once you have deducted the photographer's salary, equipment depreciation and expenses.

So, if you are willing to invest in 10/20 cameras or even more, then you are going to have a very good business model. But if you are planning to be a one man show then perhaps you should recalculate your odds. It is going to be rough.

Besides, there are not too many ways to differentiate yourself against the others considering that the technology practically does it all and you only push a button on a screen (I know, there are a lot of challenges, but in the end everybody learns and you are offering a commodity service).

Escaping from commoditization is very difficult and sometimes it is impossible to achieve. Writing or talking about Blue Ocean strategies is much more easy than actually doing it (believe me, I make a living by talking about this BS in executive training sessions all year round and I know what I am talking about). Just consider this: Chan Kim and Mauborgne, the autors of the Blue Ocean Strategy Book are still working in a very Red Ocean called academy and consultancy and they haven´t innovated in anything at all!

This business is drifting towards concentration, as it happens with a lot of business around the world nowadays.

Remember that movie "No country for old men"?, well, Matterport market is going to be "no business for small man". As I always say, I may be totally wrong because in the end strategy is an art and not a science, but it seems that the trend is clear.

Sorry guys, I know it is Friday and everybody wants to enjoy the week end, but you should do some math and see if you can stay in business at a rate of $0.04 per sq ft just in case (as one possible scenario).

And yes, keep searching for the Blue Ocean, but consider that once you find it, it will keep blue just for a while. Entry barriers are very low and anybody can cross them.
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nat_vanveen private msg quote post Address this user
I used to work for a Digital Agency (Google AdWords Partners) and the boss insisted that he was the best salesman of all and his method of determining price was whether he saw an expensive car in the parking lot of the business owner he was going to visit or not. We died from embarrassment with his approach!!

According to a local MSP who specialises in Real Estate here in Western Australia it is dog eat dog competition, lucky to get a job scanning 4 bedroom house for $450. I think the lowest I've heard was a serial MSP charging $150 for anything property he could get - but he eventually went out of business, people not happy with his quality!

Also we have the MSP who sends out salespeople with an iPad and no experience to book multiple appointments with retailers in the city and I understand those retailers have been extremely unhappy with the results of the scans and no service to revert to... That just creates bad will for anyone professional MSP who comes along later.
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Ramblinman private msg quote post Address this user
At these low prices, they are devaluating the service and value of the technology. ...I'm fortunate that my competition is charging $0.25-0.45sqft....so my min of $225 for 1500sqft + $0.10/sqft after that looks good!!
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hometakes private msg quote post Address this user
Ok, so I did some digging and found out this. These guys really aren't in the business of trying to make money with the tours, meaning making a profit from the tours. My guess is that they are just paying someone to operate the cameras and thats who the $250 goes too. They are trying to set up a network of listings so that real estate offices around the country can show off 3D VR Tours to buyers so that they can see a bunch of local listings in a short space of time without having to leave their office. My Guess is that they are trying to make money from the Real Estate offices that want to buy into it. Its interesting to see that they are using Vive Headsets on Matterport tours.

I found this video on them:
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3SixtyNow private msg quote post Address this user
They raised $325K from investors in January.
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VTLV private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfantin
Yesterday a did a few calculations, and the truth is that at $0.05 and a good volume (3 to 4 projects per day) you can get a 35/40% annual return on your investment once you have deducted the photographer's salary, equipment depreciation and expenses.


@jfantin - Did your calculation include the costs of stashing a little bit of cash aside for new gear and a marketing budget to stay in business and compete or just depreciation of the current camera gear?

What I don't see these servicing companies like @GarySnyder and I are having issues with coming into our markets is the outsourcing guru's are not paying enough dough to allow us stay in business and evolve. Yet our own pricing needs to be high enough to cover future costs to stay in business to possibly get us to the point where we can consider Blue Ocean ideas.

These lowballer's and outsources aren't looking to take care of past or future camera costs into their budget. They're looking for instant to profit off of your back and equipment by competing with you. They build a stronger marketing budget in your area to push you out or make you more reliant on their leads.

So the person who gives in to outsourcing and price drops below $0.10/ Sq Ft easily fits the mold @nat_vanveen talks about Quote:
Originally Posted by nat_vanveen
he eventually went out of business, people not happy with his quality!
The question becomes; When?

So now, the crappy Matterport quality stigma gets held against our own standards to compete in our own markets. If the national or global out-sourcer(s) gets a bad reputation, they can simply pull out and target a new market. (Many can pay to pin themselves on Dans map in 5 - 10 states while our needle rests in one small area)

We get ditched, and are left with justifying our costs to stay in business as another outsource company enters the market to pick up where the last schmuck left off. Then we fight the cycle all over again until we wear out and allow a big boy to win. (The idea of this forum was to help us work for ourselves and uphold a greater quality product).

So this brings us back to @jfantin Quote:
Originally Posted by jfantin
But if you are planning to be a one man show then perhaps you should recalculate your odds


@Wonderdawg hits the nail on the head! "Don't bother!!!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderdawg
Take off $19.00 for hosting and then one can quickly see the bottom of the quicksand. Some agent will come along and get a 10,000 sq foot house for $279.00 (minus $39.00 for hosting).


My hope is we can use this forum to push back as if we were unionized like our peers were back in the 70's. Don't work for these schmucks that compete with your marketing budget and devalue your time which lessens your marketing budget, time ability to not work for the man.

Make them fail!
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nat_vanveen private msg quote post Address this user
@VTLV Well said!
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Expertise private msg quote post Address this user
Every business (ideally) has a plan, and a target customer or market niche. I have seen a lot of photographers very stubbornly insist that they will not "get off their couch" for less than $xx or even $xxx per hour. Great, good for you and your rigid sense of self worth!

But remember, it's not how much you take in "PER HOUR WORKED" that will determine the success or failure of your business this year, it is the amount of revenue you take in for the YEAR, and the number of steady clients and the reputation you build in 2017.

We are new to Matterport, but I will confess that we built our photo business by pricing quite low at the beginning, and then increasing that pricing incrementally as our client base, bookings and skills grew.

Grow your revenue, grow your business, then once you have the client base and reputation... raise your pricing.
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brimtickle private msg quote post Address this user
Are these prices low or are they actually the correct price for a Matterport 3D tour? Actually I think it can and will go a LOT lower and still make sense for amount of work and level of skill involved.

Like Nat I'm based in Western Australia. 5000 sq ft is approx. 465 sqm and USD 199 is AUD $260. The average size house here is actually about half that size. I just scanned a house this afternoon and it took me 2 hrs, I'll probably spend another 2 hrs and it will be done, so half a days work. If I charged this 'low' rate (and I didn't) that's half a day for $235 net (after uploading fee of AUD $25). That's $470 a day, if I did 2 jobs a day 11 months a year that's AUD $112K. Even with hosting, travel etc taken out you could clear almost AUD $100K before tax a year, minus the upfront costs.

That is for a job that takes virtually no training and minimal skill. You don't need any higher education, you don't need a degree and you don't need any previous work experience. You don't even have to know how to take a photo. It's point and shoot. I could employ someone with no experience on a minimum salary (approx. 37K a year) to do this. Would the quality REALLY be that different than someone else? Be honest. Someone who is using the same camera and the same software. I don't think so. It's the hardware and the software that is the clever bit not you moving a tripod around the room and hitting a button 50 times.

This reminds me a bit of when the first Iphone came out, people waved it around and evangelised about it as if they had invented it, rather than just buying one and tapping the screen.

Don't get me wrong, I DO charge more than this and would love to continue to do that but I think everyone questioning this rate has to wake up. It will go lower and lower and in the few years this will all be done from a phone anyway and I think 'MSPs' will go the way of 'Google Pros'. Replaced by technology that everyone has in their hand and costs a few hundred bucks.

If you want to succeed you HAVE to either scale or offer something different. Invent your own camera, raise some investment and buy 100 cameras, set up your own real estate site, go back to taking award winning photos, whatever. Do something more difficult that deserves the reward that comes with it.

This is my first post on this forum, I've been an 'MSP' since January. I didn't mean it to sound so negative but honestly if you end up believing your own [redacted] you're going nowhere fast.
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letsdosome3D private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by brimtickle
Are these prices low or are they actually the correct price for a Matterport 3D tour? Actually I think it can and will go a LOT lower and still make sense for amount of work and level of skill involved.

Like Nat I'm based in Western Australia. 5000 sq ft is approx. 465 sqm and USD 199 is AUD $260. The average size house here is actually about half that size. I just scanned a house this afternoon and it took me 2 hrs, I'll probably spend another 2 hrs and it will be done, so half a days work. If I charged this 'low' rate (and I didn't) that's half a day for $235 net (after uploading fee of AUD $25). That's $470 a day, if I did 2 jobs a day 11 months a year that's AUD $112K. Even with hosting, travel etc taken out you could clear almost AUD $100K before tax a year, minus the upfront costs.

That is for a job that takes virtually no training and minimal skill. You don't need any higher education, you don't need a degree and you don't need any previous work experience. You don't even have to know how to take a photo. It's point and shoot. I could employ someone with no experience on a minimum salary (approx. 37K a year) to do this. Would the quality REALLY be that different than someone else? Be honest. Someone who is using the same camera and the same software. I don't think so. It's the hardware and the software that is the clever bit not you moving a tripod around the room and hitting a button 50 times.

This reminds me a bit of when the first Iphone came out, people waved it around and evangelised about it as if they had invented it, rather than just buying one and tapping the screen.

Don't get me wrong, I DO charge more than this and would love to continue to do that but I think everyone questioning this rate has to wake up. It will go lower and lower and in the few years this will all be done from a phone anyway and I think 'MSPs' will go the way of 'Google Pros'. Replaced by technology that everyone has in their hand and costs a few hundred bucks.

If you want to succeed you HAVE to either scale or offer something different. Invent your own camera, raise some investment and buy 100 cameras, set up your own real estate site, go back to taking award winning photos, whatever. Do something more difficult that deserves the reward that comes with it.

This is my first post on this forum, I've been an 'MSP' since January. I didn't mean it to sound so negative but honestly if you end up believing your own [redacted] you're going nowhere fast.


I'm glad you posted this as it's so true. I've been wanting to say something like this for a while but didn't feel like being shut down or screamed at for being a 'matterbaby'

Your bang on, this business requires no skill yet people talk about it like it's an art form and charge crazy money for it when the reality is all you're doing is pressing a button on an ipad screen and moving around a tripod. Sure, sometimes it needs a tiny bit of brain power but other than the odd occasion you literally stand there and twiddle your thumbs while it scans.

Scaling it is very difficult now that the prices are headed south. It's a one man band industry and if you can make a decent living from it now then you should grab it while you can.

As for the low price = poor quality: How? Everyone uses the same camera.
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Gerhard private msg quote post Address this user
I might be late to this party. 0.05 - 0.30 I will not get out of bed for that money. Will make more money taking the day off playing golf or going fishing and wont loose any money on that day.

So why don't "professional Photographers" charge $2 a still and $5 edited. You just "push a button" and adjust some settings , the camera does the rest. Then you edit it on a free program or something you paid $50 - $100 a year for. Oh yeah right because its a very complicated skill. That you have to charge hundreds or thousands for. ( Being Sarcastic - don't jump on the bandwagon and start crying now , way to sensitive ) - But does this make sense ?

Yes drop your prices but add on services , charge extra for what is standard on Matterport. That is one way of doing it. So the client thinks they are getting a "bargain" but you make your money on the up sell. For standard features and inflated hosting - You will sleep much better at night knowing you gave your customer the best value for their money and did honest business. - (Sarcastic)

Another way of Killing this market and business is to do it for FREE. I think this is still the best model to date. I think we need to give back to society more. MP Red Cross

Why don't you just charge a set monthly " Hosting Fee" say $29 - $59 p/m . I know this topic was discussed a couple of moons back. You will have a better passive income. Lock them in for at least a minimum of 6 months. So you cover your costs and make something back at least. If you are doing this as your sole income , then you will need to volume business. The guys in the USA have it very easy. But for the rest of the world - Yes we have discussed this also - It is not helping flooding the market with cameras but the technology has a 1% uptake in the market. I will say this again and again. The tech needs to be marketed to the viewers not the operators. Once the people demands these tours as standard for their listings then you will see a change in the market.

So we need to keep our heads up and not drop your pricing because you are scared of loosing out on a deal. Remember once you have dropped your pricing , you are never coming back from it. Cheap = Poor Quality and rushed work. What will happen if there are more challengers coming to market with a better service offering than Matterport what will happen then?

Richo Thetha is offering now its own editor and tour viewer:

So the camera is $350.00 add a Tripod and click and shoot and edit. Deliver in the same day. Yes its not a dollhouse view or as immersive but you get an idea of the space and its not costing you an arm and a leg. Secondly you can shoot more properties in a day. Yes what about 4K ? They are launching a 4K in the upcoming months. And a lot of the new 360 platforms have some really cool new features that we can just dream about. - This is not a paid endorsement by Ricoh - This is technology, and if you don't keep up or innovate faster you will be left behind. Look what happened to Nokia and Crackberry. They where giants and what happened. Nokia is trying to make a comeback

Ricoh is launching a cloud-based virtual tour authoring platform for the Theta called Theta360.biz.
To create a virtual tour, you don’t need to download software. You only need a Ricoh Theta (note: Theta360.biz is not compatible with other 360 cameras). The virtual tour will allow you not only to link photos together, but also show the viewer’s location and orientation on a map.
The virtual tour can then be embedded on your own page, where the tour can be viewed on most browsers, whether on PC or Mac, without having to download a special viewer program.

Although the virtual tour has a sophisticated interface, creating the virtual tour is simple. There is a tutorial on the Theta360.biz website.

Theta owners can try the Theta360.biz platform for free during the public beta. The price after the public beta has not yet been determined.

So we can cry and cry and cry . Or we can stand together and work as a MSP community and have the sun shine over everyone trying to make an honest $.
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hometakes private msg quote post Address this user
@Gerhard I agree with most of what you said. Its how I do it. Give them the lowest price first as that is what attracts them. The add for the extras. Want hosting beyond 60 days, that would be extra thank you. Want a tour that plays? That will be extra Thank you. Want more scans in one room? That will be extra thank you (we do the least amount of scans that we can do. Want Mattertags? I'll take $19 for 10, $29 for 20 and $39 for 30.

Shooting an an empty room? One scan at the doorway, and one in the middle of the room. Want an exterior 360 scan? That will be extra thank you.
Because of this, my guys are in and out in a flash and as for the post? Well theres nothing to do but wait for Matterport to process it and email off the link.

So, if they want more bells and whistles, its additional because of course it takes more of your time to handle them. But now you have given them a choice for their budget on that listing. That is want they want. Low price, with a choice of options. Remember, not all listings are priced the same so they will only earn half the amount if one sells at $300,000 VS another selling at $600,000

BTW, most agents hardly ever add anything except to extend the hosting after 60 days if it hasn't sold. My system automatically sends them an email telling them that the hosting will auto renew for 90 days if we don't hear back from them that they want to cancel the hosting. They are told if they want to make it longer than 90 days, then its $55 for 180 days or $79 for 360 days of additional hosting.
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hometakes private msg quote post Address this user
@gerhard I forgot to say. I do sleep like a baby.
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Gerhard private msg quote post Address this user
@hometakes yes you have valid point there. I agree also that they don't mind too much for the bells and whistles. I also think that the add-ons are not that user-friendly. So a lot of people don't get the full viewer experience. I have watched clients exploring the models for the first time and they miss a lot of things.So this is also slowing down the tech. They need to make the buttons more clear on the tours. Must be so simple my grandmother of 95 must be able to get immersive and navigate all the functions.

( yes there is a wishlist or rather call it a bucket list - LOL don't know if we are ever going to see them be born in my lifetime, hoping, wishing and hoping some more )
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Gerhard private msg quote post Address this user
@hometakes you will after taking the candy from the adults. No pun intended. I am just looking at what some MSP is trying to do in my areas and its a joke. You can smell the desperation for the business. My clients share with me their pricing structures etc, and it just leaves me in aww how these guys are still in business.
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hometakes private msg quote post Address this user
I forgot to say, I make money on the floor plans too. Good $$ in the mark up for floorplans and for that, we don't really do a thing. Ive sold some floorplans for $85 that cost me $15. So it all works out in the wash. Pricing is critical when it comes to Real Estate agents. If you don't like selling to them as you don't feel like they want to pay enough, then go target business's as Im sure your get plenty more $$ from them.

:-)
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